My modesty post garnered more discussion (and angry anonymous comments, and head-scratching Google search suggestions) than I'd anticipated. I set up this poll purely out of curiosity as a result of some of that discussion.
You couldn't wear either component of this outfit with garments - the top is a boatneck, and the shorts are several inches above the knee. I'm interested to see the general consensus on whether or not this outfit is appropriate for a 16 year old LDS teen to wear.
I reference For the Strength of Youth ('FTSOY') in most of the choices, so for your convenience, here's what the 2012 pamphlet says on dress standards:
"Immodest clothing is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. Young men and young women should be neat and clean and avoid being extreme or inappropriately casual in clothing, hairstyle, and behavior."
The shirt is inappropriate because you would be able to see the bra straps which makes it revealing. All under garments, whether sacred or not should be fully covered.
The shorts may be acceptable by some when the person is standing, but when sitting down a lot of leg is going to be exposed which should be covered.
I wanted to thank you for your post on modesty. It really made me think, and changed the way I view the issue. It is important to start good habits young, but it's also important to not take ourselves so seriously. Standards are shared best by example, not by judgment. We should never hold someone to an expectation that their Heavenly Father doesn't even hold them to. Once again, thank you for opening my eyes and helping me to be a better person.
I don't think this outfit is really FTSOY standard, but FTSOY is NOT a binding celestial covenant. However, I've seen my sweet young sister-in-law wear a similar outfit and no one could accuse her of being immodest. Just tall :)
I totally get where you are coming from...I just think that there is a happy medium. No one should judge and look down upon someone for not wearing what they consider modest but I also think there is nothing wrong with teaching a young girl how important she is and one way of doing that is by dressing to reflect her values. As a young women I was never taught to wear garment approved clothes, just "modest" clothes. Where the rules came in were from my parents, not anyone from church. That is the way it should be. Every family has the responsibility to set those rules. Anyway, just my two cents:)
One of the major issues here is that we're judging EACH OTHER'S clothes when really we should just worry about our OWN. I recognize that we need to look at other people's clothes to help us decide what we'd like to wear for ourselves. But other people could modestly pull off clothes that I can't and vice versa because EVERY HUMAN BODY IS DIFFERENT. Making judgements about whether or not an item of clothing is modest depends entirely on the body that's wearing them. There are some baseline standards for modesty given in the FTSOY, but you as an individual have to decide, based on your body and your circumstances, what modesty is.
If it sounds like I'm saying "Modesty is relative," I guess I am.
The way I explained it to my non-Mormon friends when I was a teenager was, "There's nothing wrong with the human body. But you wouldn't wear a bathing suit in the hallways of school."
That said, I thought of your modesty post the other day in my ward. A girl just joined the Church...she's 19 and recently married to a Priesthood holder, and chose to be baptized. She spoke in sacrament meeting, wearing a sleeveless shirt (but not a tank top) and a skirt that was above her knees. But throughout the day, I was pleased to note that no one seemed to be pulling her aside, saying anything, etc. Everyone was simply welcoming her into the Church. I'm sure that if she chooses to receive her endowments, she'll make adjustments to her wardrobe. But she's not there right now. And I'm glad that members of our ward were focused on her spiritual journey more than whether or not her clothes were evidence of it.
Sorry for totally bogarting the comment thread. I have a lot to say. Apparently.
Haha Liz I was going to say something about her. She is so honestly sweet and nice, and I've been so happy that it seems like people are only supporting her, not trying to bring her down.
WHY do people think this doesn't fit the FTSOY guidelines? For the love of PETE. And I'm sorry, anonymous, but I seriously doubt the girl's bra straps would be showing in this outfit. This is a totally appropriate outfit. Once again, we're focusing WAY too much on the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law. If she's covered up and not wearing hotpants, I think she's good to go. And I sure hope whoever answered "Her parents must be vulgar and promiscuous" was joking. I must admit, I was tempted because it's so ridiculous. :)
The bra straps would definitely show with this shirt! Trust me, I have two shirts just like this one that I had to sew up the boatneck so that my straps wouldn't show.
Can we quit getting hung up on the bra strap thing? She's wearing a strapless bra, there.
(Now I'm afraid that there are people out there who think strapless bras are immodest. Or who will say, "IF her bra had straps, they'd be showing, and that's wrong.")
I think there is nothing wrong with this outfit and I wish people would get over themselves and stop judging others for what they wear. I do not understand why people spend so much time worrying about others instead of trying to improve themselves or the world around them. There are still millions of children starving in this world and to me that is a bigger issue than the hemline of a 16 year old. Oh, and I love how the pamphlet really goes into detail for YW but merely tells boys to dress modestly, that is it. Don't even get me started on that. Shirts and skins for the boys playing basketball in the cultural hall yet the girls can't even roll up their sleeves at girls camp if they're hot. I believe boys should be counseled more and taught to govern their own minds a bit, I mean should we just wear burkas to make the men happy? Would that help you keep a pure mind, because with the way people act over this I feel like that's the only option left. But I digress...
- Endowed East Coast 27 YO Female who wishes everyone would just get over themselves already and shut up- it's called agency people.
I went to church with a head covering on once because my bishop called me into his office every week because some guy had a porn problem and such and such outfit I had was causing problems. It was funny because he told me the head covering was inappropriate too! I agree that men need to be counseled more on controlling their thoughts as well as modesty. I am glad you mentioned this : )
P.S. Perhaps moving away from a high density Mormon area will help some realize that there are far bigger fish to fry and that judging others on this and others issues will not get you far. I left the West after five years because I realized that a high density Mormon area was hazardous to my spiritual health. The culture the bubble creates is off-putting at best.
I understand that there are worse things in this world than a little skin showing, such as smoking, drugs, alcohol, and promiscuity. I would have to say that these worse things may stem from clothing choices. I am not going to judge people on what they wear, but I will teach my daughters, if I ever get some, that their body is a temple and should be clothed appropriately. I saw many of my LDS friends that were wearing clothes that weren't too bad, they were fairly clothed. But with time, their clothing choices slowly put them in groups at school that then lead them into smoking, drugs, alcohol, and sex. Ignoring our children's seemingly small choices that aren't terribly wrong may lead to bigger problems down the road. Sin first starts small and grows. It is like raising a child, if you let them have too much slack from a young age, they will be more difficult down the road when they are older.
I use the website Tumblr which has a fairly large LDS community (mostly teens and young adults) and there's actually a conversation going on there that I just found where a new convert asked what kind of swimsuit she should wear to be modest...she got answers ranging from "a shirt and shorts" to "wear whatever you want, a two-piece shows only a tiny bit more skin than a one-piece anyway" and others arguing back "No, the rule is that you should never show your stomach" and still others arguing "Something that covers your boobs and bum that you feel comfortable wearing".
My mom, sisters, and I have actually been discussing the modesty issue for a few weeks now, and your last post about it was discussed as well. It came up because my mom (who works at a school) was approached by a coworker who inferred quite a lot about my mom's beliefs and morals based solely on what he'd seen my younger sister wearing...my little sister, who is active in church, holds more than one calling, holds a current temple recommend, is probably the nicest and most accepting person you'll ever meet, and also happens to occasionally wear shorts that hit mid-thigh.
I wish I had the eloquence to write my thoughts on this subject, but I don't and any attempt would be several paragraphs long at best. Suffice it to say that I while I love the gospel, I hate Utah church culture. And this is in regards to more than just the modesty issue. It extends to politics, baby naming trends, gender roles and stereotypes, treatment of non-Mormons, and on and on.
For people who may not know, the flip flop debate stems from a talk Elder Jeffrey R. Holland gave to the Young Women in which he stated:
"I make a special appeal regarding how young women might dress for Church services and Sabbath worship. We used to speak of ‘best dress’ or ‘Sunday dress,’ and maybe we should do so again. In any case, from ancient times to modern we have always been invited to present our best selves inside and out when entering the house of the Lord—and a dedicated LDS chapel is a ‘house of the Lord.’ Our clothing or footwear need never be expensive, indeed should not be expensive, but neither should it appear that we are on our way to the beach."
Some people take it to mean absolutely no flip flops. Others, like me, think it applies to the entire manner of dress. I wore flip flops to church for two years when I was living in the Caribbean. It was a twenty minute walk in sweltering heat up a dusty path, and those were my most comfortable shoes. In every other aspect, no one could have faulted me for my dress – nice skirt, colorful t-shirt, very modest. I didn’t appear that I was on my way to the beach, and I’m certain that no apostle would have taken issue with my choice of footwear given the context.
In short, I do think we should wear our nicest clothes to church, but I don’t think a person’s choice of footwear is any indication of their individual worth or dedication to the gospel. I’m sure no one is going to be banned from heaven because their “Sunday Best” included sandals. And I think we should all quit glomming on to these super-measurable supposed indicators of virtue and using them to judge others. There are bigger fish to fry.
For the previous "Anonymous", I was a modest modest modest wore capris because no shorts were long enough to cover my long legs, skirted swim bottoms with tankini tops that more then covered my stomach (one piece suits were both uncomfortable and showed more because of my long lean body type), had very modest prom dresses (that my mother altered if needed), and didn't like wearing tight clothes. Guess what? I haven't been active since I was 19 (7 years ago) and have recently resigned from the church completely. I wore modest clothing up til a few summers ago when I found some cute tank tops and shorts that weren't knee length but that my tush wasn't hanging out of. I still can't wear a miniskirt. Modesty does not equal solid church membership for life, just as immodesty does not equal apostacy. One of my best friends is covered all the time and isn't religious of any sort. A teenager wearing a boatneck top or (shock!) shorts that only come halfway down her thighs isn't the end of the world. If she is comfortable and her parents are comfortable, why do you think you get a say? Just my apostate-y thoughts....
More like you would be LUCKY if your 16 year old daughter wore this outfit...
ReplyDeleteThe shirt is inappropriate because you would be able to see the bra straps which makes it revealing. All under garments, whether sacred or not should be fully covered.
ReplyDeleteThe shorts may be acceptable by some when the person is standing, but when sitting down a lot of leg is going to be exposed which should be covered.
I wanted to thank you for your post on modesty. It really made me think, and changed the way I view the issue. It is important to start good habits young, but it's also important to not take ourselves so seriously. Standards are shared best by example, not by judgment. We should never hold someone to an expectation that their Heavenly Father doesn't even hold them to. Once again, thank you for opening my eyes and helping me to be a better person.
ReplyDeleteI don't think this outfit is really FTSOY standard, but FTSOY is NOT a binding celestial covenant. However, I've seen my sweet young sister-in-law wear a similar outfit and no one could accuse her of being immodest. Just tall :)
I totally get where you are coming from...I just think that there is a happy medium. No one should judge and look down upon someone for not wearing what they consider modest but I also think there is nothing wrong with teaching a young girl how important she is and one way of doing that is by dressing to reflect her values. As a young women I was never taught to wear garment approved clothes, just "modest" clothes. Where the rules came in were from my parents, not anyone from church. That is the way it should be. Every family has the responsibility to set those rules. Anyway, just my two cents:)
ReplyDeleteOne of the major issues here is that we're judging EACH OTHER'S clothes when really we should just worry about our OWN. I recognize that we need to look at other people's clothes to help us decide what we'd like to wear for ourselves. But other people could modestly pull off clothes that I can't and vice versa because EVERY HUMAN BODY IS DIFFERENT. Making judgements about whether or not an item of clothing is modest depends entirely on the body that's wearing them. There are some baseline standards for modesty given in the FTSOY, but you as an individual have to decide, based on your body and your circumstances, what modesty is.
ReplyDeleteIf it sounds like I'm saying "Modesty is relative," I guess I am.
The way I explained it to my non-Mormon friends when I was a teenager was, "There's nothing wrong with the human body. But you wouldn't wear a bathing suit in the hallways of school."
That said, I thought of your modesty post the other day in my ward. A girl just joined the Church...she's 19 and recently married to a Priesthood holder, and chose to be baptized. She spoke in sacrament meeting, wearing a sleeveless shirt (but not a tank top) and a skirt that was above her knees. But throughout the day, I was pleased to note that no one seemed to be pulling her aside, saying anything, etc. Everyone was simply welcoming her into the Church. I'm sure that if she chooses to receive her endowments, she'll make adjustments to her wardrobe. But she's not there right now. And I'm glad that members of our ward were focused on her spiritual journey more than whether or not her clothes were evidence of it.
Sorry for totally bogarting the comment thread. I have a lot to say. Apparently.
Haha Liz I was going to say something about her. She is so honestly sweet and nice, and I've been so happy that it seems like people are only supporting her, not trying to bring her down.
ReplyDeleteWHY do people think this doesn't fit the FTSOY guidelines? For the love of PETE. And I'm sorry, anonymous, but I seriously doubt the girl's bra straps would be showing in this outfit. This is a totally appropriate outfit. Once again, we're focusing WAY too much on the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law. If she's covered up and not wearing hotpants, I think she's good to go. And I sure hope whoever answered "Her parents must be vulgar and promiscuous" was joking. I must admit, I was tempted because it's so ridiculous. :)
ReplyDeleteIt was my husband, and he was :)
DeleteAaaaaand, there's another vote on that one. This time it might be for real.
DeleteThe bra straps would definitely show with this shirt! Trust me, I have two shirts just like this one that I had to sew up the boatneck so that my straps wouldn't show.
DeleteCan we quit getting hung up on the bra strap thing? She's wearing a strapless bra, there.
Delete(Now I'm afraid that there are people out there who think strapless bras are immodest. Or who will say, "IF her bra had straps, they'd be showing, and that's wrong.")
I think there is nothing wrong with this outfit and I wish people would get over themselves and stop judging others for what they wear. I do not understand why people spend so much time worrying about others instead of trying to improve themselves or the world around them. There are still millions of children starving in this world and to me that is a bigger issue than the hemline of a 16 year old.
ReplyDeleteOh, and I love how the pamphlet really goes into detail for YW but merely tells boys to dress modestly, that is it. Don't even get me started on that. Shirts and skins for the boys playing basketball in the cultural hall yet the girls can't even roll up their sleeves at girls camp if they're hot. I believe boys should be counseled more and taught to govern their own minds a bit, I mean should we just wear burkas to make the men happy? Would that help you keep a pure mind, because with the way people act over this I feel like that's the only option left. But I digress...
- Endowed East Coast 27 YO Female who wishes everyone would just get over themselves already and shut up- it's called agency people.
I went to church with a head covering on once because my bishop called me into his office every week because some guy had a porn problem and such and such outfit I had was causing problems. It was funny because he told me the head covering was inappropriate too! I agree that men need to be counseled more on controlling their thoughts as well as modesty. I am glad you mentioned this : )
DeleteP.S. Perhaps moving away from a high density Mormon area will help some realize that there are far bigger fish to fry and that judging others on this and others issues will not get you far. I left the West after five years because I realized that a high density Mormon area was hazardous to my spiritual health. The culture the bubble creates is off-putting at best.
ReplyDeleteI understand that there are worse things in this world than a little skin showing, such as smoking, drugs, alcohol, and promiscuity. I would have to say that these worse things may stem from clothing choices. I am not going to judge people on what they wear, but I will teach my daughters, if I ever get some, that their body is a temple and should be clothed appropriately. I saw many of my LDS friends that were wearing clothes that weren't too bad, they were fairly clothed. But with time, their clothing choices slowly put them in groups at school that then lead them into smoking, drugs, alcohol, and sex. Ignoring our children's seemingly small choices that aren't terribly wrong may lead to bigger problems down the road. Sin first starts small and grows. It is like raising a child, if you let them have too much slack from a young age, they will be more difficult down the road when they are older.
DeleteSo agency and "slack" are interchangeable? My friends that have strayed and never returned were given no slack as children.
DeleteYou might like this... haha: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865556545/Virginia-young-women-light-up-runway-at-unique-fashion-show.html?pg=1
ReplyDeleteI would die of happiness if my girls wore this as teenagers. I know I sure wouldn't have!
ReplyDeleteI use the website Tumblr which has a fairly large LDS community (mostly teens and young adults) and there's actually a conversation going on there that I just found where a new convert asked what kind of swimsuit she should wear to be modest...she got answers ranging from "a shirt and shorts" to "wear whatever you want, a two-piece shows only a tiny bit more skin than a one-piece anyway" and others arguing back "No, the rule is that you should never show your stomach" and still others arguing "Something that covers your boobs and bum that you feel comfortable wearing".
ReplyDeleteMy mom, sisters, and I have actually been discussing the modesty issue for a few weeks now, and your last post about it was discussed as well. It came up because my mom (who works at a school) was approached by a coworker who inferred quite a lot about my mom's beliefs and morals based solely on what he'd seen my younger sister wearing...my little sister, who is active in church, holds more than one calling, holds a current temple recommend, is probably the nicest and most accepting person you'll ever meet, and also happens to occasionally wear shorts that hit mid-thigh.
I wish I had the eloquence to write my thoughts on this subject, but I don't and any attempt would be several paragraphs long at best. Suffice it to say that I while I love the gospel, I hate Utah church culture. And this is in regards to more than just the modesty issue. It extends to politics, baby naming trends, gender roles and stereotypes, treatment of non-Mormons, and on and on.
What is your take on the whole "flip flops and sandals for church" debate?
ReplyDeletehttp://ldsliving.com/story/68975-poll-sandals-in-church
I don't have a problem with it. But it is quite a controversial issue among some LDS members. What is your opinion?
For people who may not know, the flip flop debate stems from a talk Elder Jeffrey R. Holland gave to the Young Women in which he stated:
Delete"I make a special appeal regarding how young women might dress for Church services and Sabbath worship. We used to speak of ‘best dress’ or ‘Sunday dress,’ and maybe we should do so again. In any case, from ancient times to modern we have always been invited to present our best selves inside and out when entering the house of the Lord—and a dedicated LDS chapel is a ‘house of the Lord.’ Our clothing or footwear need never be expensive, indeed should not be expensive, but neither should it appear that we are on our way to the beach."
Some people take it to mean absolutely no flip flops. Others, like me, think it applies to the entire manner of dress. I wore flip flops to church for two years when I was living in the Caribbean. It was a twenty minute walk in sweltering heat up a dusty path, and those were my most comfortable shoes. In every other aspect, no one could have faulted me for my dress – nice skirt, colorful t-shirt, very modest. I didn’t appear that I was on my way to the beach, and I’m certain that no apostle would have taken issue with my choice of footwear given the context.
In short, I do think we should wear our nicest clothes to church, but I don’t think a person’s choice of footwear is any indication of their individual worth or dedication to the gospel. I’m sure no one is going to be banned from heaven because their “Sunday Best” included sandals. And I think we should all quit glomming on to these super-measurable supposed indicators of virtue and using them to judge others. There are bigger fish to fry.
For the previous "Anonymous", I was a modest modest modest wore capris because no shorts were long enough to cover my long legs, skirted swim bottoms with tankini tops that more then covered my stomach (one piece suits were both uncomfortable and showed more because of my long lean body type), had very modest prom dresses (that my mother altered if needed), and didn't like wearing tight clothes. Guess what? I haven't been active since I was 19 (7 years ago) and have recently resigned from the church completely. I wore modest clothing up til a few summers ago when I found some cute tank tops and shorts that weren't knee length but that my tush wasn't hanging out of. I still can't wear a miniskirt. Modesty does not equal solid church membership for life, just as immodesty does not equal apostacy. One of my best friends is covered all the time and isn't religious of any sort. A teenager wearing a boatneck top or (shock!) shorts that only come halfway down her thighs isn't the end of the world. If she is comfortable and her parents are comfortable, why do you think you get a say? Just my apostate-y thoughts....
ReplyDelete